Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed. Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people... I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...
Quote from: fatkid on June 19, 2004, 12:25:14 PM
Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed. Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people... I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...
I can see where you are coming from... I really have no comment because I dont want to say something now I will regret later or say something and have someone else take it the wrong way.
Either way, Paul Johnson was doing his job... working on helicopters. I still see him as innocent. And what kind of people were they killing with the helicopters?
QuoteEither way, Paul Johnson was doing his job... working on helicopters.
That's not a viable excuse... Read up on the Nuremberg Trials... Just doing your job is no excuse to kill people... Now Mr. Johnson didn't directly kill people... But he very actively indirectly participated in the deaths of people...
Does that mean I'm not sympathetic to a man who has died? Not at all... My heart goes out his family... To his brothers and sisters... His children and his wife... To his parents and to all of his friends and relatives that he has left behind...
My heart goes out to every soldier that goes to war for the freedoms I enjoy... They make sacrifices I will never understand or know about... And I am ever grateful for their sacrifices...
QuoteAnd what kind of people were they killing with the helicopters?
They were people... And that's my point... They aren't "heathens" or "evil-doers"... They are people just like me or you... If circumstances we're switched how would you respond? Your friends and brothers are in prison... Countless numbers of people you've known and loved have been killed... The only thing you've grown up knowing is war, fighting, and death... You come across a man that plays a part in the death of all of those people you've lost... What would you do? What would you do if you came across the pilots who flew the planes into the World Trade Center towers? When does the circle stop? He killed us... Yeah, but you killed them... Yeah and they killed those people... Well you came and killed those other people... Well I'm going to kill you... Hey you killed him... Now I'm going to kill you... What were you doing killing him... He killed my friend... Well you just killed my friend, so I'm going to kill you...
I'm not saying I have any right or wrong answers and I'm sure my comments may incite and anger others... But this isn't a cut and dry problem/solution... I just enjoy hearing other's opinions on the subject...
And finally one of my favorite quotes by one of the smartest men of our times;
Mahatma Gandhi
"It may be long before the law of love will be recognized in international affairs. The machineries of government stand between and hide the hearts of one people from those of another."
i,d just like to say all our thoughts are with the family of mr johnson ,
Quote from: fatkid on June 19, 2004, 12:25:14 PM
Just curious on everyone's feelings for the dead Iraqis that the Apache helicopters killed. Paul Johnson was in the Middle East working for Lockheed Martin (who I absolutely despise!) to repair Apache 'copters so that they could go back in to kill more people... I think what happened to Mr. Johnson is absolutely terrible... But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill...
Here is how I feel about this....
Our troops got sent over there by a moron for a President, they are doing their jobs just like you when you go to work everyday.....only different is that they either get killed or have to kill to stay alife.... when things break someone has to fix it to keep our troops ahead of the game, if the equipment that they need to do their jobs with fails then there is a good chance that they will get killed. I don't give flying f**k who Paul Johnson worked for, all he was doing was his job to keep out troops alife! There are a few bad apples amongst our troops but most of them are good soldiers that have families and they want nothing more than to make it home in 1 piece to see them again. For you to say "
But I feel the exact same way for the people that he helped to kill" makes me sick, our people don't take a f**king knife and cut the head off of a prisoner while he/ she is still alife! They don't (the terrorists) follow the rules of engagement so what makes you feel for them? They never would've released Paul Johnson alife even if they would've gotten what they demanded, from day 1 when he got kidnapped his faith was sealed! I have no mercy and no feelings for terrorists because that's all they are, they use terror to try to get what they want. And here you have feelings for them, why don't you go over there and tell them I feel for you......lets see what they will do with you after you say that to them.
You wanted to know how I feel LOL you got it ;D
No no, I think that's a great responce DJ...
QuoteThey don't (the terrorists) follow the rules of engagement so what makes you feel for them?
March 2002
When U.S. warplanes strafed [with AC-130 gunships] the farming village of Chowkar-Karez, 25 miles north of Kandahar on October 22-23rd,killing at least 93 civilians...
POSTED APRIL 1, 2002 (updated July 2, 2003)--
Between October 10 and December 20, 2001, U.S. bombs and missiles fell upon nine different mosques in Afghanistan, killing at least 120 innocent Afghan civilians. Mosques were hit in the provinces of Nangarhar, Kunduz, Herat, Kandahar and Paktia. The Pentagon admitted to only two 'mistakes'— one occurring on October 21 and another on November 16 in which two guided bombs went 'astray.'
Wednesday April 9, 2003
Eleven Afghan civilians were killed today when a US warplane pursuing enemy attackers mistakenly bombed a house near Afghanistan's eastern border with Pakistan, the US military said.
The civilians were killed when the bomb landed on the home on the outskirts of Shkin, 135 miles south of Kabul.
July 1, 2002 Posted: 10:31 PM EDT (0231 GMT)
BAGRAM AIR BASE, Afghanistan (CNN) -- At least 20 people were killed and more than 60 injured in Afghanistan when a U.S. plane dropped a bomb on a wedding party.
January 14, 2002
3900 Civilian Casualties Raises Questions: How Justly
Is This War Conducted? Were There No Alternatives?
A new study begs for those questions to be asked in the U.S., documenting Afghani civilian casualties of U.S. bombings from October 7 to December 29, 2001.
In Afghanistan, with one-tenth the population of the U.S., there are have been at least 3767 civilian casualties of U.S. bombing from Oct 7 to Dec 10, and then at least another 192 from Dec 10 to Dec 29, 2001. Using conservative methods, Professor Marc Herold has produced two studies of civilian casualties between those respective dates. To put this in perspective, that would be proportional to almost 40,000 civilians killed in the U.S.
And finally the best known civilian body counts in Iraq..
Minimum number of civilians killed: 9436
Maximum killed: 11317
Database Here (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm)
All sources are well documented. They key to the sources is at the very bottom of the page...
What do you call those kinds of numbers? A by-product of war? They deserved it?
I agree with you whole heartedly that blame belongs on President Bush... I don't place the blame on Paul Johnson... But his actions DID have consequences... I also understand there are many many many more factors to consider... I doubt Mr Johnson made a whole lot of money... He says he doesn't want to go to Iraq and he could lose his job... Then how will he feed and clothe his family... How will he pay for braces and school and cars etc...
But I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples... That we follow "rules of engagement"... What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine? Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?
Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick said the following about his actions in Abu Ghraib:
"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things...like rules and regulations," says Frederick. "And it just wasn't happening."
"Military intelligence has encouraged and told us 'Great job.' "
"They usually don't allow others to watch them interrogate. But since they like the way I run the prison, they have made an exception."
"We help get them to talk with the way we handle them. ... We've had a very high rate with our style of getting them to break. They usually end up breaking within hours."
Frederick says he didn't see a copy of the Geneva Convention rules for handling prisoners of war until after he was charged. The Army investigation confirms that soldiers at Abu Ghraib were not trained at all in Geneva Convention rules.
WOW Fatkid... I have to say your way of thinking is quite scary..... People are killed in automobile accidents so in your view we should kill all people who make cars and the mechanics that fix them... Or people are shot every day so we should kill everyone who manufactures guns or ammo.
What happened was not right no matter how you look at it..... Mr Johnson wasnt in the military he did his job.... He didnt tell the helicoptor pilots to kill anyone.... I have a daughter who has worked at a store that sold cigarettes so someone should kill her because someone they knew died from smoking?????
I hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.
QuoteBut I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples... That we follow "rules of engagement"... What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine? Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?
You seem to point only the bad things out (I agree what happened to those prisoners is
wrong!) but how many good things came out of this war? People seem to forget those real quick because the media only shows the bad and not the good! It's all about ratings; who gets the highest numbers when breaking news happens. Who wants to know about a military doctor that helped giving birth to little Mohamed in the most impossible conditions? The media can care less about that because it doesn't boost ratings, so all we end up with is nothing but the bad news about innocent people getting killed or tortured. I can not imagine my self being in a warzone with my fellow soldiers/friends and having to look at one of their dead bodies laying there mutilated.
Does that give me the right to go out and torture prisoners of war? Hell NO!
Those soldiers that did that need to be punished to the fullest extend of the law! Again there are more good soldiers than bad ones that follow the rules of engagement and treat POW's like it's written in the Geneva convention. Not knowing the rules is no excuse to torture any living person, they could've just kept him hostage for months and months instead of cutting his head off!
Quote(I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone)
I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats... How come if he went to war for the oil only, that the gas prices are so damn high? Shouldn't they be lower now and we all are saving money on gasoline? Maybe ones the war is over and Iraq finally has peace we will see cheaper gasoline prices, to be honest I highly doubt that that will be the case; because the US has way too much to lose in the eyes of the international comunity!
That leaves us with "
money alone"....lets say you're right and Bush went to war for the money alone. Who will get the money; the US, the Bush family or the the international comunity?
Again the US has way to much to lose by stealing Iraq's money, any person with only half a brain can see that! I'm not sure if Bush has even half of a brain but I believe some of his advisers do and truly want to do what's right for the Iraqi people and this country.
War leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth no matter how you spin it but to say you feel for the killers (terrorists) of Paul Johnson leaves a really nasty taste in
my mouth. Being ignorant is no excuse for what they did, there are different ways to deal with your anger and frustration. But then again what can you expect from cave people, yes cave people because they hide in caves like animal and cover their faces when cutting someones head off! They don't have the balls to show their faces but yet they claim to do the right thing, if I was doing the right thing I wouldn't be scared to show my f**king face.
That tells me that they know what they're doing is wrong!
Let the debate continue ;D
Quote from: DJ on June 19, 2004, 04:23:13 PM
I hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.
QuoteBut I disagree vehemently when you suggest that we as Americans hold the higher moral ground, or that it is a few bad apples... That we follow "rules of engagement"... What kinds of messages do we send to the people we go to "liberate" (I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone) when prisoners we take are beaten and stripped and ridiculed in the most disgusting ways you can imagine? Need I even mention Abu Ghraib?
You seem to point only the bad things out (I agree what happened to those prisoners is wrong!) but how many good things came out of this war? People seem to forget those real quick because the media only shows the bad and not the good! It's all about ratings; who gets the highest numbers when breaking news happens. Who wants to know about a military doctor that helped giving birth birth to little Mohamed in the most impossible conditions? The media can care less about that because it doesn't boost ratings, so all we end up with is nothing but the bad news about innocent people getting killed or tortured. I can not imagine my self being in a warzone with my fellow soldiers/friends and having to look at one of their dead bodies laying their mutilated.
Does that give me the right to go out and torture prisoners of war? Hell NO!
Those soldiers that did that need to be punished to the fullest extend of the law! Again there are more good soldiers than bad ones that follow the rules of engagement and treat POW's like it's written in the Geneve convention. Not knowing the rules is no excuse to torture any living person, they could've just kept him hostage for months and months instead of cutting his head off!
Quote(I spit on the thought that we go to liberate anyone... We went to war for money, and money alone)
I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats... How come if he went to war for the oil only that the the gas prices are so damn high? Shouldn't they be lower now and we all are saving money on gasoline? Maybe ones the war is over and Iraq finally has peace we will see cheaper gasoline prices, to be honest I highly doubt that that will be the case; because the US has way too much to lose in the eyes of the international comunity!
That leaves us with "money alone"....lets say you're right and Bush went to war for the money alone. Who will get the money; the US, the Bush family or the the international comunity?
Again the US has way to much to lose by stealing Iraq's money, any person with only half a brain can see that! I'm not sure if Bush has even half of a brain but I believe some of his advisers do and truly want to do what's right for the Iraqi people and this country.
War leaves a bad taste in everyones mouth no matter how you spin it but to say you feel for the killers (terrorists) of Paul Johnson leaves a really nasty taste in my mouth. Being ignorant is no excuse for what they did, there are different ways to deal with your anger and frustration. But then again what can you expect from cave people, yes cave people because they hide in caves like animal and cover their faces when cutting someones head off! They don't have have balls to show their faces but yet they claim to do the right thing, if I was doing the right thing I wouldn't be scared to show my f**king face.
That tells me that they know what they're doing is wrong!
Let the debate continue ;D
Dj, I agree with you and, already those 2 indaviduals have gotten killed , they were killed i heard after they were disposing the body of Paul Johnson. Gas prices have gone up because they haven't stolen any of the Iraqie oil they are gonna let the "New" government Deal with it and it is getting harder to get Oil for us because other countrys like Japan , China have increased the demand for oil ( and there getting a lot of our jobs) there are some reasons ...
LET THE DEBATE GO ON!
Quote from: ZaLandCruiser on June 18, 2004, 07:10:23 PM
http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-1.jpg http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-2.jpg http://ogrish.com/paul-johnson-beheaded-3.jpgWould show images but too groosum everyone heres the pics of the beheading got this in email :-\ .
Those are disgusting :( :P :-\
in reading Fatkids post... I have to assume he is not an american as he has no problem bashing americans and knows alot about everything that happens in Afganistan.... If I read that wrong or misinterperted it please correct me
There is NO right reason for killing anyone.... Mr Johnson personally did no harm to anyone that his job contributed to people getting killed is not a reason to kill him.
No, there is no reason they should kill him because of that, there just jelous of what we have and there just SICKNNING people and cant leave us alone :'(.
Quotein reading Fatkids post... I have to assume he is not an american as he has no problem bashing americans and knows alot about everything that happens in Afganistan
No fatkid is an American he just has a twisted mind :P....he's not afraid to say what's on his mind and I respect him for that. ;D
I am more involved with the president of the United States of America than anyone here on this forum, at least the active ones that post. I do not see any of you saying you are in the service serving our country. I dont even know where to start – So here are my thoughts on the previous posts.
If I get sent off to war and have to kill people, am I going to be hated by you Fatkid? I will just be doing what I am told to do ya know. My Commander in Chief, President Bush, is doing the best he knows how with the terrorism and the war over there ok? I really beg to differ with your comment of, "I truly believe George W. Bush started the war to finish what his father didn't and to punish Saddam for all the death threats" DJ, because without us going over there and removing Saddam from his power, what do you think would be happening to the world, and especially the United States? Granted, not as many soldiers would be in Iraq or surrounding areas for the reasons they are now. But I am not going to the length of saying that no soldiers would be dying because a terrorist attack to a base here in the US could have happened. It still can as well. President Bush didn't go to war only for the oil. Bush didn't go to war for the money alone either. He went, mainly, to capture the "evil-doers" and give them the justice they deserve.
And if any of you know about government and look past the President, you would know that not all of these decisions are Bush's alone ok? There is Congress and this and that and this and that. "Check and Balances" has had a great effect on this country. Everyone is bashing Bush left and right for the things he has done during his presidency so far and it isn't all quite right.
A lot of people just seem to skim the surface of politics and government and go by what the media says – including stuff off the Internet.
Fatkid, you have a lot of "what ifs" and I just don't fly with those because I don't like thinking like that too often. I mean I didn't want to antagonize this subject with saying my prayers, apologies, and condolences to Paul Johnson.
The men that were part of Paul's last minutes in life were a branch of Al Qeada. How do you know these men have been raised as you say Fatkid, "The only thing you've grown up knowing is war, fighting, and death." A lot of people hate Americans just because we are free. The other Americans that remain in Saudi Arabia at the moment are very cautious... They go in public at very odd times and days, trying to stay hidden because they know they aren't liked.
And I still don't understand what the helicopter pilots and passengers were doing to people in Saudi Arabia besides killing them. Was it the "government" over there? Who were they killing? The Nuremberg Trials had to do with post WWII and Nazis being killed. That is a touchy subject right there and I don't want to get into that, and don't want to get this post started on that topic.
We cannot change history, only learn from it and try to avoid repeating it if it's negative.
I have an indirect participation in peoples' deaths too... I drive a car that emits fumes that are harmful to the ozone layer, which causes more radiation to beam down onto the people and give them more sever cases of skin cancer. This shit just goes in circles Fatkid.
And moreover, this is about morals, and why would anyone think that beheading a human is right and humane? People in Saudi Arabia and all other parts of the world do not think it's the common way of death. People were trying to stop the murder of Paul Johnson. 1400+ homes were raided. Doing a job is one thing... Fixing helicopters has nothing to do with killing people. I do not believe Paul was indirectly afflicted in the killings of whoever was killed. I mean shit, go back to mechanics... They fix vehicles that people use to commit vehicular homicide... Is that thought of when the homicide takes place? Oh, Mr. Mechanic, you deserve to be beheaded for working on the vehicle that killed my loved one.
DJ, I agree with your comment, "our people don't take a f**king knife and cut the head off of a prisoner while he/ she is still alive!" We do use guns, yes, and most of those deaths are quick, and more human than using a knife that probably isn't the greatest, and having to *details not being discussed as I get goose bumps even thinking of it* just to kill someone? Even a clean chop is just nasty. Being beheaded is NOT RIGHT IN 99.9999999999999999999% of the Earth.
This can take you back to the Salem Witch Trials... It's basically the same shit. Being hung for thinking you are committing witchcraft. To me, hangings are more humane than beheadings. But maybe that's because people commit suicide the same way. Beheadings just aren't right... period.
I am here to protect myself and the United States first and foremost, and then the rest of the world comes next. By joining the Army National Guard, I am seeing the world in a different perspective and I wish others would as well. Don't blame 100% of everything that goes wrong on the President of the United States of America, because 100% of the time, it's not always 100% of his actions and words being displayed. Everyone always points out the negative it seems. This world has really gone pessimistic these days. Try to be optimistic for once.
Well, I will continue to serve the United States of America proudly. No one will ever tear me of that pride. I hope I have brought up some issues that really hit home.
- Jeff
Applause Soaring ..... very well spoken. I agree with you 100%
Everyone in this country NEEDS to BLAME everything on Someone... it cant just have happened it HAS to be someones fault....not always true.
For instance everyone wants to blame our government on the 9-11 attacks. That they knew ahead of time... Someone please tell me what could have been done to change what happened. I dont think the threats, named names and dates and which plane or act of violence they were going to commit. There is nothing that could have been done to stop that. IF Im correct the terrorists boarded the planes outside the US. Yes threats have been made and will continue to be made on a daily basis... but seriously if some 16 year old terriorist girl or boy wants to strap a bomb to themselfs and walk into your local mall and kill 100's we cant stop that. I seriously dont understand why as a country we divide when things bad happen and want to throw blame.... as long as there are terrorists out there there will acts of terriorism....
For God's sake, when are we going to get "Operation Flaming Turban" underway in earnest???
Enough of this, already!!
God bless his family, I can't imagine the pain of knowing your loved one died this way.
I absolute HATE these SOB's. I wish we could catch them and give them the same end!!!!!!
Muslims want violence, and death, let's give it to them.
I'm sick of these alleged "people".
Oh sweet shit... I just got back from the movies, The Terminal (which I fully enjoyed btw)... Now let's get down to business; as we have lots of issues to address...
FogHorn is a perfect example of ignorance in America...
So Fog let's say you catch them and kill them... Then what?
They come and catch you and kill you...
Then your friends catch them and kill them...
Then their friends catch your friends and kill them...
And so on and so on and so on...
My underlying point through all my posts has been, where does the violence end?
Tell me FogHorn, where does the violence end? How do you stop it? What is your suggestion? Where I seem to point to life, that I feel for the people who have committed these acts and would love to understand them, to find a solution to their problems, to end the fighting peacefully, you seem to point only to more death. Do two wrongs make a right? Do three wrongs make a right? Do four, or five? How about a hundred? The answer is unequivocally, no! They do not... So tell me your wonderfull solution... I've got it, you pointed it out so perfectly... It's the Muslims fault... God how could I have not seen it? That's the Final Solution... Let's get rid of those ****ing Muslims and we'll all be a-ok... Extermination of the Muslims seems to be the answer... So when you finally decide to write your responce just title it Mein Kampf part 2, we'll start setting up the foundations for the Fourth Reich and purify the whole world...
Soaring, you say that there are lots of other people behind the scene working for Bush... Making decisions, choices, etc, but who in the end has the ultimate say? Bush... As commander and chief the buck stops there, plain and simple... When it comes to matters of the military he has the end-all, say-all... No one else has the authority that the President does when it comes to matters of war, not even Congress combined (house and senate)...
QuoteAnd I still don't understand what the helicopter pilots and passengers were doing to people in Saudi Arabia besides killing them. Was it the "government" over there? Who were they killing? The Nuremberg Trials had to do with post WWII and Nazis being killed. That is a touchy subject right there and I don't want to get into that, and don't want to get this post started on that topic.
I'm not sure what you were trying to say here, but here at two explanations of what I can only assume... Apache helicopters are used for one, and one purpose only... War...
According to HowStuffWorks.com (http://science.howstuffworks.com/apache-helicopter.htm):
"The Apache helicopter is a revolutionary development in the history of war. It is essentially a flying tank -- a helicopter designed to survive heavy attack and inflict massive damage. It can zero in on specific targets, day or night, even in terrible weather. As you might expect, it is a terrifying machine to ground forces."
I used the example of the Nuremberg Trials as an example that "You're just doing your job" isn't a viable excuse when what you are doing is immoral... You had stated that Mr. Johnson was just doing his job... My feelings for his actions toss and turn constantly... As DJ pointed out VERY well, without someone there to repair the helicopter more U.S. soldiers die... And I think DJ has made a very good point concerning Mr. Johnson's duties, but as I stated I toss on this all day long when thinking about it... I don't in anyway NOR have I in any post said that he got what he deserved, or that he should have been killed as Thisnamenottaken tried to put words in my mouth...
QuoteWOW Fatkid... I have to say your way of thinking is quite scary..... People are killed in automobile accidents so in your view we should kill all people who make cars and the mechanics that fix them... Or people are shot every day so we should kill everyone who manufactures guns or ammo.
What happened was not right no matter how you look at it..... Mr Johnson wasn't in the military he did his job.... He didn't tell the helicopter pilots to kill anyone.... I have a daughter who has worked at a store that sold cigarettes so someone should kill her because someone they knew died from smoking?Huh?
Point out my statements where I said anything remotely even close to the idea that Mr Johnson should have been killed... What I pointed out was the dichotomy of Mr Johnson... On one hand we see him as a terrible terrible victim of an awful crime... On the other he IS an enabler to the deaths of many... That's what my posts were pointing at... Not that he EVER deserved what he got, or that what happened was right... Finally thisnametaken cars are not created to kill people... Though it is arguable, guns are not
usually created to kill people (Let's not argue about current gun laws on this thread right now, that's just too much on one plate; besides most know I'm NOT an avid fan of guns by any means)... As I've shown in this post Apache helicopters have one purpose and one design; war, death, destruction; all one in the same...
..Continued...
Now to more of your posts Jeff, (btw you can call me Dan; only seems fair sense I know your name :))
QuoteIf I get sent off to war and have to kill people, am I going to be hated by you Fatkid? I will just be doing what I am told to do ya know.
Have you read anything I've written?
Quote from: fatkid on June 17, 2004, 02:43:34 PM
Guess now that I'm on here I should throw out my thanks as well...
Takes a lot to do what you're doing Jeff... Best of luck...
We'll all be waiting to hear back from you I'm sure... :)
Quote from: fatkid on June 19, 2004, 01:00:57 PM
Does that mean I'm not sympathetic to a man who has died? Not at all... My heart goes out his family... To his brothers and sisters... His children and his wife... To his parents and to all of his friends and relatives that he has left behind...
My heart goes out to every soldier that goes to war for the freedoms I enjoy... They make sacrifices I will never understand or know about... And I am ever grateful for their sacrifices...
Here's a real quandary for you Jeff... What do you do when your staff sargent orders you to gas hundreds of innocent people? If you don't do it, you could be court marshaled, dishonerably dismissed, or worse yet shot on the spot for treason... A more real example... What happens when everone is sitting around the jail with the POWs and you're ordered to "prepare" them for questioning... Subject them to starvation, beatings, humiliations, all not in accordance with the Geneva pacts as Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick and others facing trial have stated they were told by superiors to do...
Along the same lines, do I hate the soldiers who did this to the Iraqi POWS? Not at all... I will never understand the horrors those men and women were subjected to... I will never understand the sacrifices that they have taken, and as such cannot be upset at them for their actions... I'm upset that things like that happen but am not in anyway upset at the soldiers... It is my same attitude toward Mr Johnson and to the terrorists in the Middle East and to the people of the Middle East... It is something that everyone deserves... To put it simply I detest the actions, but not the actors, because there is more to their story than I will ever know...
And finally I point to the fact that over 10 of thousands of Middle Eastern civilians have been murdered, yes I use the word murdered, and the best responce (not to mention the only responce) I get is from DJ...
QuoteI hate for any civilian to get killed in any kind of way may it be due to human error, mechanical error or just plain terrorism.
We have had a handful killed in the Iraq war, and they've suffered through 10s of thousands... That's fine if you don't want to listen to that, but here is undeniable fact... Since U.N. sanctions were put in place on Iraq (no help with food, medicine, or economic support; the sanctions were put in place in the early 90s) over 500,000 Iraqi children, under the age of 5, died (the report was released in 2000; so how many more in the past 4)... That's out of the realm of murders, that's a genocide! A U.S. lead, U.N. sanctioned genocide! The trend of death continued until 1996 when the U.N. relaxed the sanctions to allow Iraq to sell oil to purchase food, medicine, and other humanitarian aid items... 500,000 children under the age of 5!!! I mean that number is just out of the realm of understanding... How many more children in the 5-12 age bracket? What about the trends of Iraqi's being able to live until they see their 18th birthday? This 500,000 is only for children under the age of 5! But as American's we hold the higher moral ground, because these people are "evil-doers" and "heathen cave people"... They got what they deserved for invading Kuwait
Here's the real deal info:
http://www.againstbombing.org/childunicef.htm
"July 21, 2000 at 1:23 PM ET by Reuters
-
UN Says Sanctions Have Killed Some 500,000 Iraqi Children
BAGHDAD - A senior U.N. official said Friday about half a million
children under the age of 5 have died in Iraq since the imposition of
U.N. sanctions 10 years ago.
Anupama Rao Singh, country director for the U.N. Children's Fund
(UNICEF), made the estimate in an interview with Reuters.
``In absolute terms we estimate that perhaps about half a million
children under 5 years of age have died, who ordinarily would not have
died had the decline in mortality that was prevalent over the 70s and
the 80s continued through the 90s,´´ she said...
...Sanctions were imposed on Iraq as punishment for its 1990 invasion of
Kuwait, although the United Nations has allowed Iraq to sell oil to buy
food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies.
Rao Singh said the sanctions also have affected the quality of
education, with many children forced to leave schools to hustle a living
on the streets."
Now to the points on oil and money...
DJ, we seem to think similarly on this, and so I'm sure we'll be able to go along on this end very well...
Do you think that for a second Bush has you, Average-Joe American, in his heart? Do you believe that he cares how low your oil prices are? Do you think he cares how much money you have in your pocket? After the Enron circus there is no doubt in my mind that Bush could give a flying **** about me and my economic conditions... Big Business has its' hand so far up Cheney's ass he's just a puppet that they control... Haliburton and Bush and Cheney have been in bed for years and it's finally being exposed... We live in a society where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer every day... Bush seems to take a lot of his economic lessons from Regan, and it's been proven that Regan-omics (i.e. trickle down economics) do NOT work... That cash does not flow downward, but instead stays in the hands of the greedy corprate leaders of America... There's a good reason oil prices haven't gone down... OPEC and Bush and Haliburtion don't want them to... It means billions upon billions of dollars go into their pockets...
You know, I'm quite older than you guys....(In my sixties), so I remember what Hitler and his thugs did to the world. My dear mother was in a concentration camp. (And No, she wasn't Jewish.
Call me insensitive, but I did not feel a drop of sadness for enemy prisoners when the media had their field day with the Abu Ghraib prison photos. I viewed them as a few soldiers letting off steam on a bad day, against people who were trying to kill them only a few days beforehand. I'm more upset that these photos have been so irresponsibly plastered everywhere, putting a target on the backs of our boys and girls who continue to fight for our country in the Middle East, and probably inciting the recent beheadings.
WHY OH WHY have we, as Americans, become more concerned with the "well-being" of enemy prisoners rather than the brutal, bloody beheadings of our fellow citizens? Why can't we see the photos of the beheadings on the TV news? Why are we being mollycoddled by the media? Where are the photos from the WTC and Pentagon burning to remind us of why we fight the War on Terror? You know, the ones of broken steel and desperate workers falling from the Twin Towers? Why are we being treated like children by a media who thinks we're not grown-up enough to see the brutality which terrorists would someday like to inflict on all of us?
Maybe seeing these photos is what it will take to wake us all up to the fact that WE ARE AT WAR with these savages. We had better face up to the reality of this terrorist enemy or our freedom will be just another distant memory. If you think I'm exaggerating, ask any Israeli Jew about their daily white-knuckle bus commute or a lunchtime visit to a pizzeria with their child that is nothing short of nerve-racking.
Putting panties on the heads of enemy prisoners is nothing. At least they still HAVE their heads, unlike Mr. Berg and Mr. Johnson.
A few weeks ago, the French representative to the European Parliament was saying he saw no reason 'insurrectionists' should not have access to nuclear weapons.
Imagine what would happen if they get their hands on nuclear weapons. They have not compunction with killing a few. The only thing prohibiting them from killing many is the method. When (not if) they get nuclear, biological, or chemical capabilities, they will come with them. The next 9-11 may be 10's or even 100's of thousands of bodies
Muslims all over the world go to their friday prayers and get an earful of "blame the jews, hate all non Muslims, kill all non Muslims, commit suicide for sex, etc." The entire religion is an insane death cult.
Muslim = violence
http://www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/terrorist2.html
WOW Foghorn.... congrats
You made a very good statement and opened my eyes and hopefully a few more....
You are so right..... WHY do they think its right to show the prision pictures 100 times a day in Magazines, newspapers and Television.... yet not show any photos of what has been done to the americans.. Our media tries to make this violence look one sided and like we are the bad guys.... hmmmmmm now that you brought it to my attention... I wonder why.
QuoteMuslims all over the world go to their friday prayers and get an earful of "blame the jews, hate all non Muslims, kill all non Muslims, commit suicide for sex, etc." The entire religion is an insane death cult.
Muslim = violence
Man, look at what you're saying! I was really trying to sit on may hands for this one, but it is scary to see you blaming every Muslim (all 2 billion of them) and their faith for what's going on. The terrorists are extremists with views that are not shared with most Muslims. Clearly not every Muslim is a terrorist. I am sickened to see someone with such a flawed view of the Muslim faith.
Ok, I wasn't going to reply to this thread because too many opinions can differ and don't want to get into an argument on the web. But, how in the world can you Fog blame everything that is happening over in Iraq or Afghanistan on muslims? That really is an ignorant statement. I think maybe everyone should go and read Soaring's post again because this young adult has more common sense then alot of people posting in this thread right now. It's a shame that this thread that was meant to be a good thread dedicated to an american who was killed has been hijacked into a spewing fest of who did what to whom. God Bless all the families that have been effected by this war in one way or another.
Quote from: Thisnamenottaken on June 20, 2004, 06:01:12 AM
WOW Foghorn.... congrats
You made a very good statement and opened my eyes and hopefully a few more....
You are so right..... WHY do they think its right to show the prision pictures 100 times a day in Magazines, newspapers and Television.... yet not show any photos of what has been done to the americans.. Our media tries to make this violence look one sided and like we are the bad guys.... hmmmmmm now that you brought it to my attention... I wonder why.
You know why we don't show the photos? Because they are too disgusting... Have you seen the video of Mr. Berg or the photos of Mr. Johnson? I have, and I will really never be the same... They are images you just can't get rid of... Do I want my children to see the horrors of war? I hope that my children would never have to see a single war in their entire lives... It's the same reason you don't see the 1000s of piles of bodies from the dead Iraqi children... As I've reported there are over half a million so far, but when have you seen them on TV? Broken and sick from malnutrition... Dying where they stand...
Do you understand the hate you are being fed thisname? Fog is spouting off to bring a fight to every Muslim in the world... Is that right? Is that the answer to all of our problems?
FogHorn, I'm just going to let you living in ignorance... When I lived in Nashville I met people just like you... All they could say is stupid n-word this and f-ing n-word that... It's all the n-words fault our country is in the piss-hole... You say you remember the horrors of Hitler's Third Reich... Then why do you seem so inclined to repeat his faults?
Have you ever studied anything about Muslims or what they believe? Ever read the Koran? I highly doubt it, because if you had you would realize that what you are saying about being an "insane death cult" is completely inaccurate... Then along those same lines what would you refer to the Christian religions? Ever heard of the Inquisitions? Does that mean that every Christian is responsible for for the sins of a few?
Fatkid,
Let's take a look at your recent argument. You start with typical base socialist sophistry: "Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." "Foghorn is a perfect example of ignorance in America..."
Then you argue from your conclusions as axioms. "And so on and so on and so on..." Without acknowledging the possibility of any alternative such as one side achieving unquestioned victory as the Allies did in WWII.
Where does the violence end? I do not know, but I sure as hell hope for the world that it ends with unconditional victory for the forces of liberty.
The Nuremburg trials were trials of individuals who engaged in torture and wanton murder of civilian populations--unquestionably evil acts. Engine repair hardly falls into the same category. The comparison is absurd.
Apache helicopters are used to preserve the lives of their crews and the ground forces for whom they provide close air support as well as the lives of the larger society they defend. Thus, I conclude their purpose is equally for life as it is for death, which seems appropriate because there is no death without life nor any life without death.
"There is more to [the] story [of the terrorists who murdered Paul Johnson] than I will ever know..."
You won't know what they had for breakfast last week, but those minutiae strike me as irrelevant. The history of the middle east and particularly of the house of saud is readily available to any who are willing to look for themselve. But then again, you are the same individual who ignores more than a century of empirical evidence demonstrating the unquestionable evil of socialism and collectivism.
Did you really state that the Saudi nationals who committed this murder have known nothing but war and violence? The House of Saud has not gone to war for quite a while. If these men have known any war or violence, they sought it out in foreign lands to satisfy their own self-righteous blood-lust.
"And finally I point to the fact that over 10 of thousands of Middle Eastern civilians have been murdered"
To which thousands of middle eastern civilians do you refer? Certainly not to any enemy combatants. Who then? The civilians murdered by Saddam Hussein? Some other group? The victims of the Taliban? If you suggest the Americans have murdered thousand of civilians then you are simply lying.
The UN are a bunch of lying bastards appointed by totalitarian dictators. Who gives a shit what they say? Saddam Hussein used the sanctions as an excuse for starving his own people. The Kurdish north where the US prevented his murderous influence thrived even under sanctions.
Dan, your morals are perverse and evil. That's not too uncommon for a twenty-year-old. I hope you someday take the time to develop some rational morals and to understand a little bit of history.
I agreee with you Bob you made a great point ;).
Well, here goes another one of my final posts before I leave for basic training in Fort Jackson, SC until early September.
I can see FogHorn's point of view since he has been around for longer than most of us here in the forum and has seen a hell of a lot more than I am sure he ever wanted to. Should the media down and outright show these pictures and videos of the recent beheadings? In my opinion, not without the family's permission. It's a sad deal. The media does make us look like the bad guys. We can't show anything that they do because it's so damn inhumane. The United States' Military has much more humane ways of taking care of business.
This whole country has turned on the road that leads downhill. A year and a half ago, and still to this day, people are bitching about our Pledge of Allegiance. And with these types of people in the United States of America, everyone has to watch what they say, how they act, and what they think. This is absolutely horrible. Because one or two people bitch about the words in our Pledge of Allegiance, the rest of the nation has to suffer and kiss their ass? I don't think so. These 1% of people need to get the hell out of the United States and go to another country and see what they have living here.
Dan, I could say you are living in ignorance, but I don't stoop that low. Everyone has their own views. I don't know what state (mental) you are living in, but broaden the view a little. I read your posts, and a few times you have went into the whole speech of, "So Fog let's say you catch them and kill them... Then what? They come and catch you and kill you... Then your friends catch them and kill them... Then their friends catch your friends and kill them... And so on and so on and so on..." Violence will never end – period.
Like I knew what kind of helicopters were being used in Saudi Arabia. That doesn't make a shit to me because my point of, Mr. Paul Johnson not having anything to do with the deaths stands as that – HE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DEATHS.
I hope you read my previous post and thought about it. Like I said and will repeat so you can think and see again... When vehicular homicides occur, does the family blame the mechanic for not fixing the vehicle? Yes they can, but on another note.... What if it had been months prior when the mechanic worked on the vehicle? I mean come on. There are crazies out there. I still do not see Mr. Johnson in participating with peoples' deaths that occurred thanks to use of the Apache Helicopters.
Here are your "what ifs" in a different form Dan (with spelling corrections I may add lol). "Here's a real quandary for you Jeff... What do you do when your staff sergeant orders you to gas hundreds of innocent people? If you don't do it, you could be court marshaled, dishonorably dismissed, or worse yet shot on the spot for treason... A more real example... What happens when everyone is sitting around the jail with the POWs and you're ordered to "prepare" them for questioning... Subject them to starvation, beatings, humiliations, all not in accordance with the Geneva pacts as Army Reserve Staff Sgt. Chip Frederick and others facing trial have stated they were told by superiors to do..." That is a "what if" in my eyes and I guess if it ever came down to me gassing people, then so be it. I am an American Soldier and let me tell you if my Sergeant put me up to the task of gassing terrorists... I would be right on it. Now let's say they are innocent bystanders or whatever you want to call them, I would tell my Sergeant he is wasting breath and I would walk away. Call me an asshole... But I will not gas just anyone. NOW GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GET BACK DOWN TO REALITY HERE.
And moving on to the several hundreds of thousands of middle eastern people being killed – I agree Bob, Dan you make it sound like that's the United States' fault 100%. Comparing that the hundreds of soldiers we have lost in the war so far, to the thousands of middle eastern people that have been killed is not even close to logical because the people died for different reasons. Yes we have killed innocent people over there. But you have the right to compare these, so I wont say you don't, but its just not logical to do such a thing. They have killed hundreds of us and we have killed hundreds of them. We are not at fault for the hundreds of thousands of people over there that were killed in recent years. Saddam Hussein and his regime are.
And Dan, there you go rambling on about President Bush again with the oil prices. He has no say on what price they are. Gas here is $1.78. Did President Bush meander throughout the United States giving out the prices? I don't believe he did. The prices of oil are reflected by the actions that are taking place, but not directly because of President Bush.
I just really wish the President bashing would quit because people are just skimming the surface of it all trying to point fingers just so satisfaction is gained. I really hope John Kerry doesn't get into office, but if he does... I am anxious to see how he is going to handle things. I am not one to judge so my thoughts remain in me until future notice.
And that's about all I have to say about that.
- Jeff
Thank you Soaring. There's so much I would like to say.....but just want to tell the young ones to study and read history (Know The Facts!) I too don't want to see Kerry in there....here's a little article from 1998 about flip flop Kerry:
1998: Kerry calls for ground troops to topple Saddam; Clinton not tough enough
The Boston Globe | February 23, 1998 | Aaron Zitner, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON -- Senator John F. Kerry, who began his public life as a Vietnam War protester, said yesterday that the United States should use ground troops to topple Iraqi President Saddam Hussein if he does not comply with international demands to give up chemical and biological weapons.
Kerry, a potential presidential candidate in 2000, said sending US troops into Iraq should be "the last option, but it is a legitimate option."
The state's junior senator said President Clinton had not been tough enough in his measures to subdue the Iraqi president.
Because Iraq will try to rebuild its chemical and biological weaponry after a US air attack, "we will not eliminate the problem for ourselves or for the rest of the world with a bombing attack," Kerry said.
Kerry said his conditional support for using ground troops put him "way ahead of the commander in chief, and I'm probably way ahead of my colleagues, and certainly of much of the country. But I believe this."
God Bless America, President Bush, Our Military (ESPECIALLY MY GRANDSON WITH SEAL TEAM 6)
All that said, I do criticize Bush.
He betrayed the soldiers for whom he is the civilian commander-in-chief. War by half-measures is evil and wrong. Both Bushes are guilty of this sin.
I suspect he was misled by the neoconservatives--a group with tribalistic and religious identity whose roots lie squarely in communism. Bush failed to man the armed forces for the war leaving the armed forces with too few personnel to secure the defeated Iraq -- leading to much misery, undermining the moral imperative that led to war and setting the stage for lingering bloodshed and ill-will in the region. And of course, killing more Americans than necessary in the process.
One can see this now with the "stop-loss" provisions and yet no conscription. ie. Forced service for those who have already served while taking no action to provide any future relief. This can only lead to bitter low morale.
I hope and pray November ends the Bush dynasty forever. I wish the Republicans had some way to choose a different candidate for the presidency.
On the bright side, at least Bush hasn't sullied the office.
Bob,
"Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was never my intended statement whether implicit or directly stated. I'll play devil's advocate in these discussions just to hear others thoughtful points of view; it can only help to widen my own view... What I said was that FogHorn is a perfect example of what I see as a societal problem, a microcosm if you will... You want to talk "any who disagrees" then head right there to FogHorn
QuoteMuslims all over the world go to their friday prayers and get an earful of "blame the jews, hate all non Muslims, kill all non Muslims, commit suicide for sex, etc." The entire religion is an insane death cult.
Muslim = violence
There it is right there in all of its blissful ignorance. And my morals are perverse and evil?
You point to the Nuremberg Trials, and I will agree unconditionally, my example was very extreme... The actions of the German Army during WWII pale any actions done by Mr. Johnson... You also point to the use of Apache helicopters and Mr Johnson's role played with them... As DJ stated earlier and brought to my full attention, without him more Americans die... I acknowledged that idea fully, and found it to be very insightful, something I hadn't considered in my original thoughts, and stated as an eye opener in my second (or third) large post (I'm not above listening to others or for that matter changing my ideas given new thoughts and ideas ;))...
You seem to say I'm blinded by my embrace of socialism... To that I can agree... As we have these talks and discussions I'm opened up to new possibilities every day... I say that your hatred/disgust/unwaivering attitude toward socialism blinds you as well... You say "Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was an argument of mine... What is it you are telling me? That all socialists "disregard years of empirical evidence"... That there is no merit what so ever to any type of socialist programs or governments... If I understand your attitude correctly (and correct me if I am wrong) that you care more about the self than about the collective good... That's a very capitalist attitude, that I am more important than the rest... I take an attitude that I am no more important than any other individual that has ever been alive, that my right to live is no better than any other person, be he a terrorist, a Muslim, an African, be he rich or poor... To me the problems of capitalism lie in the natures it breeds in it's constituents; greed... Horde everything you can before you die and forget the rest... That is where is see the greatest "evil" in capitalism, and where a socialist society can help to overcome that... That instead of having a few with money and power, that we can all rise up together, leaving as few behind as possible...
Jeff,
"Dan, I could say you are living in ignorance"
Living in ignorance of what? That we need to stop killing each other? That we can help raise a society out of its totalitarian dictatorship without ever having to fire a shot? I'm ignorant for believing in the power of love, of right, over the powers of hate and fear?
"Violence will never end – period." Why not? Because you won't let it? Because people who are full of fear and hate won't let it? Because we can't "broaden the view a little"? If you took my he kills, she kills, he kills as a literal idea then I'm sorry... The point I was making was the absurdity of FogHorns idea's of let's kill 'em all, because all that kind of attitude breeds is more of the same ignorance... We can end violence, but we cannot end violence with violence... And I'm living in ignorance?
"I would tell my Sergeant he is wasting breath and I would walk away. Call me an asshole... But I will not gas just anyone. NOW GET OFF YOUR HIGH HORSE AND GET BACK DOWN TO REALITY HERE."
I don't think you're following along very well with me here... You're yelling for what we agree on... And as I said with my examples of the gassing, it wasn't a very real life example (i.e. I was in reality before you started yelling)... But you dodged the question (of the real life examples; torturing prisoners etc), if what your Sargent orders you to do is illegal, what do you do?
Now back to the deaths of the civilians in the Middle East;
They are well documented and very well reported on... Bombing BY THE U.S.A. in both Afghanistan and Iraq have killed 10s of thousands of CIVILIANS... Cluster bombing campaigns lead to the worst civilian casualty rates... These are not lies, or made up figures... Look to ANY news source and you can find the figures (I've linked to the most accurate counts I could find so far already)... These figures are not of people killed by the Taliban or by Saddam, but that are known civilians that were accidentally murdered by bombing runs from U.S. War ships and fighter plans... There are 100s upon thousands of others that still have not been reported by A.P. reporting groups..
"the thousands of middle eastern people that have been killed is not even close to logical because the people died for different reasons."
I know, we died going in to liberate them, and they died when we went in to liberate them... It's crazy of me to see their deaths as related to American actions... And I'm not even dealing with the half-million children that have died from U.N. sanctions... Why not comment on it Jeff... Because a U.S. lead, U.N. sanctioned genocide of Iraqi children has you stumped... And I'm ignorant?
"We are not at fault for the hundreds of thousands of people over there that were killed in recent years. Saddam Hussein and his regime are."
Does punishing an entire country for one leaders actions make sense? Does killing 1 child for a leaders actions make sense? I sure as hell hope the world won't hold me responsible for what President Bush has done... But that is what the world, with the U.N., did to Iraq...
'"Any who disagree are ignorant or insane." was never my intended statement whether implicit or directly stated.' -- More sophistry. I didn't bother to read beyond the opening sentence. You already have my analysis of the matter. 'Nuff said.
Site Claims Police Helped in Abduction
By SALAH NASRAWI, AP
RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (June 20) - Al-Qaida militants disguised in police uniforms and cars provided by sympathizers in the Saudi security forces set up a fake checkpoint to snare the American engineer they later beheaded, according to an account of the operation posted on an Islamic extremist Web site Sunday.
The account of Paul M. Johnson Jr's abduction highlighted fears that some diplomats and Westerners in the kingom have expressed, that militants have infiltrated Saudi security forces, a possibility Saudi officials have denied.
In a separate article on the Web site, the leader of the al-Qaida cell behind the abduction justified the targeting of Johnson, pointing to his work on Apache attack helicopters for Lockheed Martin.
Johnson "works for military aviation and he belongs to the American army, which kills, tortures and harms Muslims everywhere, which supports enemies (of Islam) in Palestine, Philippines, Kashmir," wrote Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, who was killed by Saudi security forces in a gunbattle Friday night, hours after Johnson's slaying.
The articles in Sawt al-Jihad, or Voice of the Holy War, a semimonthly Internet periodical posted by al-Qaida in the Arabian Peninsula, came as police continued their search for Johnson's body and the militants involved in his death.
Police in armored vehicles and a helicopter sealed off three neighborhoods of the Saudi capital Sunday, searching any cars that tried to leave the areas.
The article said militants wearing police uniforms and using police cars set up a fake checkpoint June 12 on al-Khadma Road, leading to the airport, near Imam Mohammed bin Saud University.
"A number of the cooperators who are sincere to their religion in the security apparatus donated those clothes and the police cars. We ask God to reward them and that they use their energy to serve Islam and the mujahedeen," the article read.
More on This Story
· Al-Qaida Cell Confirms al-Moqrin's Death
· New Jersey Town Mourns for Johnson
· World Leaders Condemn Hostage Slaying
· U.S. Companies Not Fleeing Saudi Arabia
· Americans in Saudi Arabia Fear for Attacks
· Saudi Anti-Extremist Campaign Ineffective
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
· AOL Search: Saudi Arabia
When Johnson's car approached the checkpoint, the militants stopped his car, detained him, anesthetized him and carried him to another car, the article said. Earlier Saudi newspaper reports had also said Johnson was drugged during the kidnapping.
The article said they then blew up Johnson's car.
Security officials said last week that Johnson's car was found near Imam University. Saudi press reports said the car was booby-trapped and later caught fire.
On the same day as Johnson's abduction, militants shot and killed another American, Kenneth Scroggs of Laconia, N.H., in his garage in Riyadh.
Earlier that week, militants in the capital also shot and killed Irish cameraman Simon Cumbers, who was filming for the British Broadcasting Corp. when he was shot, and another American, Robert Jacobs of Murphysboro, Ill.
After the kidnapping, his captors said they would kill Johnson on Friday unless Saudi Arabia released jailed al-Qaida militants - a demand the Saudi government refused.
Sunday's al-Qaida article said the militants decided to behead Johnson when Adel al-Jubeir, foreign affairs adviser to Crown Prince Abdullah in Washington, declared that Saudi Arabia would not negotiate with the kidnappers.
"The stupid Saudi government took the initiative and announced by the Americanized tongue Adel Al-Jubeir that it will not submit to the conditions of the mujahedeen," the statement read.
The group said it beheaded Johnson, 49, when its deadline expired Friday.
Al-Moqrin's final article, written after Johnson's kidnapping, described the American as "an infidel, a warrior of the military."
Al-Moqrin replied to critics urging the release of Johnson, saying: "Do those people want to see this infidel carry on the killing of the children and the raping of the women in Baghdad and Kabul?"
"We can't preserve the dignity of Muslims but through these means," he wrote.
Al-Moqrin, believed to be the top al-Qaida figure in Saudi Arabia, was killed along with three other militants in a Riyadh gunbattle Friday night, hours after photos of Johnson's body and severed head were posted on a Web site.
The others killed were identified as Faisal Abdul-Rahman al-Dikheel, Turki bin Fuheid al-Muteiry and Ibrahim bin Abdullah al-Dreiham. Al-Dikheel was believed to be the No. 2 al-Qaida militant in Saudi Arabia.
One security officer was killed and two were wounded in the gunbattle, the official Saudi news agency reported.
The Interior Ministry said 12 suspected militants also were arrested in a sweep of the capital.
The ministry said authorities also confiscated forged identity papers, $38,000 in Saudi and American currency, three rocket-propelled grenade launchers, hand grenades, automatic rifles and other weapons.
06-20-04 14:36 EDT
(https://www.pogocheats.net/proxy/?http://cdn.news.aol.com/aolnews_photos/06/02/20040619060509990006)
Saudi officials claim Abdulaziz al-Moqrin, the reputed leader of al-Qaida in the kingdom, was killed in a shootout. (AP/Al Arabiya)
And I'm the one staring blankly at emperical evidence? You won't look at any points other than your own...
Dan,
I am well versed in the history of the region and of the world. I see no need to waste my time responding to sophistry or elevating sophistry beyond its true station.
If you want to pretend to engage in a well-reasoned rational discussion, you need to step up to the plate equipped for the game. I have already given your posts more than they deserve.
Where is the deciet in my discussion? Where do I not point to factual evidense where it can be pointed to?
If anyone is guilty of sophistry, you only need look in a mirror... I hear big claims from you, but I see no proof...
I'm not even about to get into a pissing contest, but I will not sit back and be called a liar, when the person making the claims is just as guilty as myself...
Dan,
You hijacked a memorial posted by those who grieve and anger over a heinous act of murder. You hijacked the memorial to spout ideological nonsense and the lowest sort of sophist crap. You now ask about your deceit: You repeated the UN's absurd and thoroughly debunked deceptions to support your ideology.
You can think of me whatever you will. I could not care any less what a blinded ideologue thinks of me.
I am sure you intend well. I respectfully suggest you are paving your road with your good intentions just as fervently as the Bushes paved theirs. I sincerely hope you someday realise the error of your ways and choose a different road.
Quote from: bob@pogopal on June 20, 2004, 12:37:16 PM
Dan,
You hijacked a memorial posted by those who grieve and anger over a heinous act of murder. You hijacked the memorial to spout ideological nonsense and the lowest sort of sophist crap. You now ask about your deceit: You repeated the UN's absurd and thoroughly debunked deceptions to support your ideology.
Thank you Bob!! I said this in an earlier post but that got ignored. So glad to see I am not the only one who feels that this thread was hijacked.
Its a damn shame this guy had to die the way he did. None can justify it at all. The manner in which this man was killed was horrible and cruel. I saw the tape of the other guy being beheaded. If Mr. Johnson died the same way, in a sawing motion. I feel very bad for him and his family. The whole building helicopters thing: Who knows if the terrorists even knew thats what he did? They killed him because he was American. I pray that at least a couple of those apache's he repaird can offer him some vengance by killing at least some of the men responsible for what happened to him. No one deserves what Mr. Johnson got. I also don't think what goes on in our pow camps to what goes on in their pow camps. They are chopping fuc)ing heads off for christs sake. When some american over there takes out his knife and chops one of their heads off, then you can compare. But if it helps the soldiers to undress those idiot Iraqi Wimps that could not even protect their own country. More power to them...lol
My favorite quote will be from Chris Rock today:
If Iraq was such a threat, how did we take it over in two weeks? You could not take over Baltimore in two weeks. ;) >>>edited by YZrider<<<
Murder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
Quote from: TonySoprano on June 20, 2004, 04:36:16 PM
Murder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
I agree with you that the Saudi's are weak little bitches and we should stand together. I definitely do not think murder is murder and I don't think Paul Johnson agrees with you either. If I were him I would have been begging to be shot. This is where I shall bring the word torture into the conversation. Sawing a man's head off and taking pictures makes me think of torture. Not just murder. Dumb Iraqi pricks. We have enough bombs we should have decimated the whole country into nothing. Or just left the stupid pricks alone until they finally pissed us of enough to decimate them into oblivion. Would you miss the head sawing pricks or their kids that would grow up to be (guess what) Head sawing pricks too.
Quote from: YZrider on June 20, 2004, 07:18:05 PM
Quote from: TonySoprano on June 20, 2004, 04:36:16 PM
Murder is murder. Thus it scarcely matters if a person is shot, stabbed, or in the case of Paul Johnson, beheaded. But that medieval form of death still deepens our shock at the brutal taking of an innocent life of a father, husband, and son whose only crime was being among 30,000 Americans who live and work in Saudi Arabia. We are bound to a weak ally in Saudi soil. They need our skills and manpower, we need their oil. A family grieves. A nation recoils in horror. Yet the task remains the same: to stand firm, to strike our foes with all our might, and to demand that our "friends" do no less.
I agree with you that the Saudi's are weak little bitches and we should stand together. I definitely do not think murder is murder and I don't think Paul Johnson agrees with you either. If I were him I would have been begging to be shot. This is where I shall bring the word torture into the conversation. Sawing a man's head off and taking pictures makes me think of torture. Not just murder. Dumb Iraqi pricks. We have enough bombs we should have decimated the whole country into nothing. Or just left the stupid pricks alone until they finally pissed us of enough to decimate them into oblivion. Would you miss the head sawing pricks or their kids that would grow up to be (guess what) Head sawing pricks too.
Whoa, someone is a bit angry here. This has basically been stated YZ... We do not agree with the way Paul Johnson left planet Earth in body form. His spirit is still out there roaming. What I dont get, is on the news, it showed the main guy with a gun... But they use knives to kill... Interesting.
I do not believe we should decimate the whole country. Terrorists are still on the loose in other countries. No I wouldnt miss the terrorists one bit.
That was quite the post YZ... 1% of which I agree with.