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Posted by gran2x2
- June 11, 2016, 03:55:44 AMAli had a lot of bad stuff going on in his personal life from what I remember in the 70's. He was a great boxer but I could never get behind an athlete who dodged the draft when I had a brother laying half dead in a hospital from stepping on a land mine. Add the fact of his black panther support and I lost a lot of respect for him. We all have our own opinions for our own reasons..it's what makes us humans.
Posted by snap20
- June 10, 2016, 10:07:08 AMThis is a fantastic first person article on why Ali was so loud and brash:
http://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/24/608244/cassius-clay-first-person-sonny-liston
http://www.si.com/vault/1964/02/24/608244/cassius-clay-first-person-sonny-liston
Posted by AustinBennett
- June 08, 2016, 02:04:51 AMExcuses such as college and married w/children were revised once the VN war heated up. Hardly became an excuse anymore. Perhaps a house full of kids mattered. That's the first I've heard that 41% drafted in 1965 were black. I used to plow through newsreels and footage of the war and remember seeing few blacks. 10 or 11% seems about right maybe even less.
Posted by snap20
- June 07, 2016, 05:17:36 PMGreat point DL...about the percentage of draftees being black. I also wonder about the percentage that came from rich versus poor families/homes/areas. Then you get into the question of people avoiding the draft by enrolling in college/secondary education, claiming health issues, getting married and having children, etc. Religion wasn't the only way out of it at the time.
Edit: Oh and anyone feel free to jump in...no one is interjecting a convo.
Edit: Oh and anyone feel free to jump in...no one is interjecting a convo.
Posted by disneyland lady
- June 07, 2016, 02:17:24 PMTy Snap for posting. 
Something I did not mention about my brother who went to Canada to avoid the draft - he is black. In 1965 41% of draftees were black, yet only 11% of population was black.
Sorry to interject. Dealing with stuff and closed my email and facebook so I am trying to find something other than playing HOGs.
Something I did not mention about my brother who went to Canada to avoid the draft - he is black. In 1965 41% of draftees were black, yet only 11% of population was black. Sorry to interject. Dealing with stuff and closed my email and facebook so I am trying to find something other than playing HOGs.
Posted by snap20
- June 07, 2016, 01:21:50 PMI hear ya about the groupie thing...I'm sort of the same way. lol.
I think one other thing to point out is that Ali was loud (in an in-your-face "I'm the greatest" manner) when it wasn't popular for a black man (or woman) to do that. So part of his appeal was he had the courage to speak out, no matter the consequences to himself. Thus he became a hero to those 'without a voice'.
He was also internationally known. They knew who he was in Zaire when he fought there. The Philippines basically put their civil war on hold when he fought in Manila. We can't forget about his humanitarian efforts. I mean, look at the list of charities he'd given either money or time to: https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/muhammad-ali
I know what you are saying about the convenience of using faith to avoid going to conflict, but at the same time they had a conscientious objector rule for a reason...which anyone was allowed to invoke. I think Ali made the mistake of fighting it, rather than working with the armed forces to serve in a civilian capacity stateside. He might not have agreed with the war (like many didn't) but he could have used his status and celebrity for 'good' at least and continued boxing more than likely. The US wasn't going to let him do that after he decided to fight though, to prove a point. But, that's my opinion. Others would say fighting it was the harder thing to do and more impactful in the long run. Just depends on what side of the fence you sit on personally, I guess. I'm not saying my opinion is right and anyone else's is wrong though. Everyone is free to have their own, obviously. :)
I think one other thing to point out is that Ali was loud (in an in-your-face "I'm the greatest" manner) when it wasn't popular for a black man (or woman) to do that. So part of his appeal was he had the courage to speak out, no matter the consequences to himself. Thus he became a hero to those 'without a voice'.
He was also internationally known. They knew who he was in Zaire when he fought there. The Philippines basically put their civil war on hold when he fought in Manila. We can't forget about his humanitarian efforts. I mean, look at the list of charities he'd given either money or time to: https://www.looktothestars.org/celebrity/muhammad-ali
I know what you are saying about the convenience of using faith to avoid going to conflict, but at the same time they had a conscientious objector rule for a reason...which anyone was allowed to invoke. I think Ali made the mistake of fighting it, rather than working with the armed forces to serve in a civilian capacity stateside. He might not have agreed with the war (like many didn't) but he could have used his status and celebrity for 'good' at least and continued boxing more than likely. The US wasn't going to let him do that after he decided to fight though, to prove a point. But, that's my opinion. Others would say fighting it was the harder thing to do and more impactful in the long run. Just depends on what side of the fence you sit on personally, I guess. I'm not saying my opinion is right and anyone else's is wrong though. Everyone is free to have their own, obviously. :)
Posted by Squid
- June 07, 2016, 04:03:03 AMQuote from: snap20 on June 06, 2016, 06:58:29 PM
...But I'll try.
...I could go on, but really the Time article does a great job of explaining most of what I covered, better. :)
Thank you SO much for taking the time to respond, Snappy. I really do appreciate it. I consider myself reasonable enough to always listen to anyone's view as long as it is presented calmly and rationally. You have certainly done that.
I do not dislike M.A. I do admit that I am NOT a very good groupie, I never was. There have been times in my life, like recently, when I have said that growing up I loved the music of the Eagles. In many ways, it spoke to me. Then, earlier this year, someone told me that Glenn Frey died. My response was, "Who's Glenn Frey?". I loved the music but wasn't enough of a groupie to know any details of who made that music. When I see someone like M.A. (or LeBron James, etc.) screaming from the rooftops that they are so pretty.... or the Greatest.... or the Chosen one.... or King of it all.... they almost instantly lose me. I've always believed in a quiet grace when in those high positions and have never liked anything shoved down my throat. I was a very young child when the fight Ali vs. Frazier took place. I was rooting for Frazier because of Ali's ego.
I do admit that I knew nothing of the difference in skill that M.A. brought to the ring. I can really respect that. I can also respect anyone who stands up for an injustice and wants to do what he can to correct it. Giving up those three years had to be tough, tougher than I can know, but the Vietnam war was immensely unpopular and it seemed convenient and coincidental to use one's faith to avoid going into the conflict. I can be wrong... it's happened before!
I will read the Time article, Snap, and thank you for bringing it all to my attention.
Posted by snap20
- June 06, 2016, 06:58:29 PMQuote from: Squid on June 04, 2016, 02:53:52 AM
Maybe someone can tell me sometime, in a calm manner, why he was so great. People hold him up as a god and I don't understand it. Yes, he was the heavyweight boxing champion at one time. So were a lot of people. He was filled will an immense ego and I guess I just never saw the allure. Then, he was inducted into the military, refused to go, was convicted of draft evasion, sentenced to prison, fined 10K and banned from boxing for three years. He did this under the guise of being a conscientious objector while many men and women went off to fight.
I don't wish death on anyone and I truly do hope he rests in peace. I just don't see why people think he was so great. I really am at a loss.
Sounds like you've already made up your mind to not like him, no matter the explanation given. But I'll try.
The title of "The Greatest Of All Time" wasn't really about boxing (it was partially). It was just a mantra. It was intimidation over your opponent. But he was pretty darn good. He was something the boxing world hadn't seen before in his power and size...but he had, at the time, the fastest hands anyone had ever seen on a heavyweight. Heavyweights of the time were just braun and power. No skill. No "boxing". Just slugging. That, right there, made him different from the rest. As Mark stated above, his upsets over Liston and Foreman were HUGE at the time. Is his ego any bigger than someone like LeBron James who considers himself "The Chosen One" and gave himself his own nickname of "King James"? Some people like the ego and call it confidence. Some don't and call it arrogance or cockiness. That all depends on the person.
As for the draft and all that. How many athletes today would stand up for their beliefs/rights and give up over 3 years of their prime to fight for them? The 3 years he gave were prime boxing years for any boxer. We can argue all day if he was doing it just to get out of the draft, but he was interested in Islam going back to 1959 and converted in 1964. He was drafted in 1966. So it wasn't like he was drafted, then decided he wanted to be Muslim so he could avoid the war. And, take note, the Supreme Court overturned his conviction (by a unanimous vote by the way) mainly because the government failed to show the reason for a denial of a conscientious objector exemption. Of course he had been tested before this all and his tested IQ was too low to qualify for the draft. But of course the US military leaders had to lower the threshold because they couldn't get enough people to qualify to be drafted. That's another topic though.
He became an icon to black men because he stood up to the government (again, remember, this was just after the Civil Rights Act and he was from Kentucky). He also became an icon to the anti-war movement because of his stance against the war (going back to before he was drafted).
I encourage you, if you have the time and inclination (this goes for anyone) to read through the Time article on Ali, here: http://time.com/3646214/muhammad-ali-dead-obituary/
If you don't want to read through all of it, just skip to the section titled "The Enemy" and read that and the next section "Exile - and Return". It gives a great overview/explanation of why he is so regarded by so many.
That got a little long. LOL. I could go on, but really the Time article does a great job of explaining most of what I covered, better. :)
Posted by gran2x2
- June 05, 2016, 05:45:15 PMI remember a lot from his younger days that really made me dislike him...I am sad he died in such a miserable way with Parkinsons but I never rode the big admiration train.R.I.P. ...
Posted by mark roberts
- June 05, 2016, 02:47:43 AMHis upset title victories over Sonny Liston and George Foreman were enormous. He owned the heavyweight title for years and reclaimed it twice. After escaping the draft I couldn't stand the sight of Ali for a very long time. It took me a number of years to look beyond that and admit that he truly was the greatest. There's simply no way of denying it if you know anything about boxing.
Posted by PissedOffPumpkin
- June 04, 2016, 09:47:32 PMWow, Disney, big respect! It's stories like yours that gave me my life philosophy. I try to treat everyone as if they're currently going through some life-changing trauma. Notice, I did say "try." Sometimes I can be a real bitch, but mostly when my own life is taking a few hits. Not an excuse. Just an explanation. Thanks for sharing a great life story!
Posted by disneyland lady
- June 04, 2016, 07:05:27 AMFather was a Bantamweight boxer who fell short of Golden Gloves so boxing was a family thing with me having 6 brothers. During the Olympics I cheered Cassius Clay and even when he became Ali. I had a brother living in Canada avoiding the draft because his epilepsy was given 1A Class draft deferment (because seizures only happened during stress and being shot at was not stressful?) I was not allowed to see him when he snuck home once nor could we corespond. My military hubby would not let either name be mentioned in the house when Ali refused to serve. I felt Ali could serve America better moneywise by the taxes he paid as a civilian rather than as a soldier.
Met one of his daughters, Khaliah Ali, an incredible clothing designer for the larger woman at a book signing in Hollywood. At the time my stepmother who had Parkinsons, was with me and Khaliah immediately saw her in the line and recognized the gait as Parkinsons and had us pulled and bumped to the front where she asked questions about sense of smell and such.
Cried like a baby to see Mohammed carry the Olympic Flame. Knowing full well the true horror of death from Parkinsons, my heart aches today. I understand Squids feelings, I reserve those for anyone named Kardashian.
Met one of his daughters, Khaliah Ali, an incredible clothing designer for the larger woman at a book signing in Hollywood. At the time my stepmother who had Parkinsons, was with me and Khaliah immediately saw her in the line and recognized the gait as Parkinsons and had us pulled and bumped to the front where she asked questions about sense of smell and such.
Cried like a baby to see Mohammed carry the Olympic Flame. Knowing full well the true horror of death from Parkinsons, my heart aches today. I understand Squids feelings, I reserve those for anyone named Kardashian.
Posted by Stinkerbell
- June 04, 2016, 04:48:11 AMSquid, those same questions can be asked of many celebrities.
My husband was talking about Prince's death, saying how wonderful he was... and I kept asking, okay, he made great music, was entertaining, immense talent...but what did he do with all that fortune? All the status? What did he do to help humanity? I've heard nothing.
If anyone can answer that, I'd love to hear it.
My husband was talking about Prince's death, saying how wonderful he was... and I kept asking, okay, he made great music, was entertaining, immense talent...but what did he do with all that fortune? All the status? What did he do to help humanity? I've heard nothing.
If anyone can answer that, I'd love to hear it.
Posted by Squid
- June 04, 2016, 04:07:35 AMThank you, PoP. I half expected a bit of a backlash - people are that passionate about M.A.
Posted by PissedOffPumpkin
- June 04, 2016, 03:25:43 AMI don't have a response, Squid, but I'm so impressed with your reasoning and presentation. Very well stated!